October Monthly Post
Sep. 30th, 2020 02:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmith posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
allbingoThis is the October community post for allbingo. What were your bingo activities during September? What are your plans for October?
For September we had:
I Want Fries With That! Bingo byysabetwordsmith
Fills for this fest should pass the Fries test for disability in fiction.
Posting will be September 1-30.
For October we will have:
Fall Fest byvexed_wench and spiralicious
This fest covers all the autumn holidays.
Posting will be October 1-31.
Nobody has claimed November or December yet. Does anyone want to run a fest then?
allbingo. What were your bingo activities during September? What are your plans for October?For September we had:
I Want Fries With That! Bingo by
ysabetwordsmith Fills for this fest should pass the Fries test for disability in fiction.
Posting will be September 1-30.
For October we will have:
Fall Fest by
vexed_wench and spiralicious This fest covers all the autumn holidays.
Posting will be October 1-31.
Nobody has claimed November or December yet. Does anyone want to run a fest then?
no subject
Date: 2020-09-30 09:34 pm (UTC)I'm looking forward to the Fall Fest as well.
If no one else volunteers for Nov. or Dec. I might be able to host if things get better around here. At the moment I'm exhausted.
no subject
Date: 2020-10-01 12:18 am (UTC)Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 12:33 am (UTC)Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 01:13 am (UTC)And mmm - I'm really passionate about this character so I knew I'd do a deep dive through his stories for evidence for my meta, but hoo boy somehow I ended up with even more to work with than I expected! :'D I've honestly found it hard just to sort through and decide which examples to put in and which cam be left out, but having such a huge list of relatable content from a character who means so much to me makes me extremely happy, and I can't wait to show all of this to other people as well! :)
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 01:19 am (UTC)In this community, you can play any card at any time.
>> And mmm - I'm really passionate about this character so I knew I'd do a deep dive through his stories for evidence for my meta, but hoo boy somehow I ended up with even more to work with than I expected! :'D <<
Go you!
>> I've honestly found it hard just to sort through and decide which examples to put in and which cam be left out, but having such a huge list of relatable content from a character who means so much to me makes me extremely happy, and I can't wait to show all of this to other people as well! :) <<
Consider making the scenes into a series, then, or editing to a main story plus outtakes. There is so little content in the field of Fries-passing fiction that I'd love to get all we can.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 04:28 am (UTC)Actually, the piece I'm writing is meta - explaining in depth why I interpret this particular character as autistic!
But, I had considered writing a couple short ficlets as well to at least complete a three-work bingo, and I did come across kind of a conundrum there, that I've been dealing with for a while. IDK if this is the right place to muse about this stuff but this comment got me thinking about it all morning so I guess I might as well put it here (even if it's possibly pretty silly and offbase?? IDK).
Put simply: what makes a fanwork inclusive/representative of disability?
Now when it comes to some things, such as being an amputee or using a wheelchair, that's pretty straightforward - just depict the character that way. But what about, as is relevant in my case, autistic characters? ASD is a collection of traits that are recognised to be a particular neurotype all together, but most in the general public aren't able to recognise that neurotype when they see it, and often write characters who would likely be diagnosed autistic accidentally.
Obviously, just saying the word 'autistic' in the story would clarify everything. But in my current fandom, that's not the most practical option. The canon is set in Japan, where understanding of autism is very uncommon, and both of the characters I see as autistic (and like to write about - there are many more that can be seen that way, lol) had very strange upbringings - it's just hard to think of natural ways the subject could come up.
And...I guess more to the point, I do have some weird hang-ups on the matter. (BTW, this whole paragraph also applies to how I feel about ace/aro fic, as an aroace myself.) I've been puzzling over this and I think it's a combination of understandable and problematic things - on the one hand, I have this uncomfortable sense that explicitly mentioning certain identities feels sort of forced and internet speak-y, which I think is in part an internalised self-consciousness that I want to work on. But I also think that fanfic depictions of neurodivergence (and a-specness!) too often DO fall into over simplistic 'someone said the word, so they googled it and it described them and they felt good' fics that don't delve into anything especially complex or meaningful. Overall I guess is the sense that I want to do something a bit more literary, that doesn't entirely rely on just saying the word in-story.
So, okay. I'm writing autistic fic without using the word, at least as an exercise. I had a fic idea (which I haven't fully worked out yet) that focuses on those traits, and the isolation that resulted, and the character finding commonality with the other character I intepret as autistic, all without either of them having a specific word to describe it all. Does that count? I think it does - it's a major focus of the piece.
But, what if it's not the primary focus? The character acts in ways consistent with ASD, and maybe I add a bit more than what comes up in canon just to make it very clear, deliberately adding some autistic culture type stuff in there on the sidelines, to be recognised by people who can spot it. Does that count?
But we can go even further. For some characters, you don't need to add anything else to make them act like an autistic person. They already do that in canon. If I write this particular canon just as he acts in canon - struggling with body language and non-literal language, stimming with a comfort object to calm his turbulent emotions - does THAT count? Can I tag THAT as '____ is autistic'?
But that sort of... feels like cheating, somehow? I basically always write these two characters as autistic, and sometimes it comes up in recognisable ways as the narrative takes shape and sometimes it doesn't. I feel like I ought to be adding> something, somehow? I mean, we can talk about autistic-coded characters til the cows come home (certainly anime is filled with them), but most would agree that they're not actually 'autistic characters', and don't count as 'representation'. Is the knowledge in the head of the writer that yes, these things make the character autistic, enough to transform it into representation? Is it enough if the author would clarify 'yep, I see them as autistic' if asked? Does the tag validate itself by its own presence?
But tags are for seeking as well as delineating. If I tagged a 100 word drabble that just features those two characters kissing without any other especially autistic elements, then I'd be worried about people coming in expecting some actual focus on that. So where's the cut-off? At what level can I tag it - or submit it for a challenge such as this one?
I don't know - obviously, I'm overthinking this, lol. It's just that when I was trying to think of fiction ideas, I couldn't stop wondering about all that, and being kinda weirdly worried that some of my ideas were subtle, but also kind of not wanting to take the ''easy'' route and make things explicit unless it feels logical and natural for the characters... hm.
Well, I shouldn't act like that's why I didn't write anything more - a head overflowing with plotbunnies and recurrent brainfog did that job lmao :'D (Also there are plenty of other disabilities I could write as well haha - this is just what I know best!) But welp I've been thinking about this loosely for a while and this challenge really shapped the question for me? *thinking*
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 05:50 am (UTC)Meta counts! People have been doing that for ages with sexual orientation and other traits.
>> But, I had considered writing a couple short ficlets as well to at least complete a three-work bingo, and I did come across kind of a conundrum there, that I've been dealing with for a while.<<
That sounds good.
>> IDK if this is the right place to muse about this stuff but this comment got me thinking about it all morning so I guess I might as well put it here (even if it's possibly pretty silly and offbase?? IDK).<<
Go for it! I love making people think, and I love thinky conversations, and this is exactly the kind of stuff I hoped to spark with this fest. \o/
>> Put simply: what makes a fanwork inclusive/representative of disability? <<
Well, the Fries test itself is a good start:
Does a work have more than one disabled character? Do the disabled characters have their own narrative purpose other than the education and profit of a nondisabled character? Is the character’s disability not eradicated either by curing or killing?
I also like Nicola's additions:
Novels in which crips talk to each other? Novels in which we talk to each other about something other than wanting to be cured, or how to get cured, or why we want to die because we can’t be cured?
However, for my part I take a more diverse approach. If a disabled character dies, or obtains a cure (partial or whole), that doesn't undo their experiences. I have some formerly disabled characters, and you can see the effects of their disabled experience on their current behavior. Sometimes disabled people do get depressed, even suicidal -- in fact, that's very common. It has to be okay to write about that. But it should not be the ONLY thing people write about, and mainstream disability fic is both scarce and limited.
Me, I just follow disabled characters around and watch what they do, same as any other protagonists, and they do a lot of interesting and sometimes heroic things. I like reading other authors who do the same. Things I look for in positive representation:
* Does the character have a specific condition, or if not, at least a recognizable pattern of disability? Not all my wheelchairs users got there the same way. I have several with the same condition in The Moon Door, but each has a different set of symptoms/triggers.
* Does the disabled character have a reasonable complement of relationships such as parents, siblings, friends, a sex/romance partner if relevant, etc.?
* Does the disabled character have and pursue goals, preferably including some not related to disability, like saving the world?
* Are people alert to the advantages and skills that can come from disability? E.g. the blind person does not care if they lights have gone off, the deaf person can communicate fine in a raucous factory, and the dyspraxic dude can solve damn near any problem because that's what he does all day just to get by.
* What is the overall perspective on disability? It is much better if surrounding characters are competent and respectful. My patrons are very keen on buying competence and respect in literature!
* Does anyone openly talk about disability theory? Why disabilities exist, what makes a disability, how to deal with them? It's not relevant in every story but can make a very interesting examination of ideas. Torn World had a fascinating division between the Northerners, who integrated everyone they could but couldn't afford to support any nonproductive individuals in a very marginal survival situation; and the Southerners, who supported everyone with disabilities but rarely allowed them to work. Neither perfect, but each fitting its own context and both making a great contrast.
* What is the state of adaptive equipment or other accommodations? Do people take a creative and inclusive approach or shy away from it?
And so on.
>>Now when it comes to some things, such as being an amputee or using a wheelchair, that's pretty straightforward - just depict the character that way. But what about, as is relevant in my case, autistic characters? ASD is a collection of traits that are recognised to be a particular neurotype all together, but most in the general public aren't able to recognise that neurotype when they see it, and often write characters who would likely be diagnosed autistic accidentally.<<
I like the range set up for this ace/aro database:
Type of rep
How involved the representation is. This description only encompasses the title stated. If, for example, a character is aromantic but it is only mentioned in the second book of a series, then the first book remains “Word of God”. The second will show “On Page” or “Word used”, depending on context.
Word of God - The character’s sexuality is not explicited on page, but the author has confirmed it. This means it may never come up as a narrative element, so be warned!
On page - The character’s sexuality is explicitly demonstrated within the text. It should be stated, discussed, or showed to an extent that makes it clear to the readers.
Word used - The identity is stated using the actual word (this usually means it is also On Page)
If you look at my character sheets, you'll see that I often annotate things like sexual orientation, disability, family past, religion, dominant sense/intelligence, etc. which are not explicitly named in the story or poem but are supported by that narrative. A gay character will not be ogling boobies. An ace character may be seeking a platonic partnership. A neurovariant character will have a particular way of thinking that is not common.
I will add that, as a reader/reviewer/editor/patron, I expect a character's portrayal to be consistent. The actions have to match any descriptive words. I get very annoyed when authors use a label but then don't support it or actively contradict it. (Exception: sometimes characters discover things about themselves which they didn't know, and that can be okay if handled fluently. Often it is not.)
>> Obviously, just saying the word 'autistic' in the story would clarify everything. But in my current fandom, that's not the most practical option. The canon is set in Japan, where understanding of autism is very uncommon, and both of the characters I see as autistic (and like to write about - there are many more that can be seen that way, lol) had very strange upbringings - it's just hard to think of natural ways the subject could come up. <<
Don't force it, that always looks bad.
However, cultures tend to evolve their own ways of talking about things, and they don't always draw lines in the same places. Frex, in Japan, shy people are desirable as friends, and a window office or seat is bad because it's seen as a sign of isolation from the group. What America sees as undesirable autistic traits might be highly desired in some other culture -- and in fact, "geeky" traits have become much more valued with the rise of computers. This stuff is all a lot more malleable than most people realize.
That said, there are often local terms that people use for recognizable clusters of traits. These can serve a similar role as clinical nomenclature.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 06:15 am (UTC)That's useful to know.
>> (BTW, this whole paragraph also applies to how I feel about ace/aro fic, as an aroace myself.) <<
I should probably mention that I write both neurovariant and ace/aro characters. For the latter see my posts on QUILTBAG characters, sexual orientations, and romantic orientations.
>> I've been puzzling over this and I think it's a combination of understandable and problematic things - on the one hand, I have this uncomfortable sense that explicitly mentioning certain identities feels sort of forced and internet speak-y, which I think is in part an internalised self-consciousness that I want to work on. <<
To avoid this, observe conversations by trait-having people, especially with other trait-having people. It seems pretty consistent that some individuals are quite forward with their identity, while others rarely mention it or actively hide it. This applies to neurotype, sexual orientation, disability, etc. Further observe how they talk about it. Then just emulate that.
I have an edge because many of my disabled, ace/aro, etc. characters and their adventures have been prompted by trait-having people. But neither my fans nor the characters all talk the same way, which adds to the realism.
Frex, contrast the characters of Heron and Shiv, neither of whom are interested in sex. Heron is very out and will reply to total strangers, "Thank you for your interest, but I am asexual and also in a committed relationship." Shiv on the other hand is still hesitant to claim the identity, but will flag as asexual at social events to avoid unwanted advances.
>> But I also think that fanfic depictions of neurodivergence (and a-specness!) too often DO fall into over simplistic 'someone said the word, so they googled it and it described them and they felt good' fics that don't delve into anything especially complex or meaningful. <<
Often that's all we have to go on. A good writer will A) seek to portray diverse characters and B) if they don't know something will look it up. At least twice now, I have had trait-having fans pop up and point to something I got out of hardcore clinical sources and say, "That's wrong" or "That's a way people abuse us." :/ I have since collected large followings on both tracks after hunting down material written by and for trait-having people. I have also learned to look for that first and not trust "official" sources because they often know fuckall about what they're attempting to describe.
>> Overall I guess is the sense that I want to do something a bit more literary, that doesn't entirely rely on just saying the word in-story.<<
Go you! That's good writing. We need more of that.
>> So, okay. I'm writing autistic fic without using the word, at least as an exercise.<<
Any exercise that involves writing around something to leave out can be very interesting. It's good for writing blind or deaf characters, using other senses to make up for the missing one.
>> I had a fic idea (which I haven't fully worked out yet) that focuses on those traits, and the isolation that resulted, and the character finding commonality with the other character I intepret as autistic, all without either of them having a specific word to describe it all. Does that count? I think it does - it's a major focus of the piece.<<
It totally counts.
For comparison, think about stories where a character is not named as being lesbian, vision-impaired, out of shape, black, etc. but simply portrayed that way. It's pretty common.
>> But, what if it's not the primary focus? The character acts in ways consistent with ASD, and maybe I add a bit more than what comes up in canon just to make it very clear, deliberately adding some autistic culture type stuff in there on the sidelines, to be recognised by people who can spot it. Does that count?<<
There are different aspects to this.
One has to do with how fanfic is written. I write fanfic based on "derive in, extrapolate out." I start with a character or scene that catches my interest, imagine how they got that way, and then move forward to how that could influence future stories. Frex, Phil Coulson in the Avengers movies uses a lot of underdog techniques, but he is a white man in a government organization with a lot of power. So where the heck did he learn that stuff? I posited an impoverished upbringing, a disabled sister, and a mother with epic people skills. If you are adding more autistic examples to match things already shown in canon, that's a similar thing.
The other is the spectrum of emphasis, from the main theme and the main character to background parity and bit players. We need stories "about" autism. But it's boring if every story with an autistic character has to have that plot/theme. They should get to do all the stories other people do too. Autistic romance, autistic mystery, autistic gentle fiction, etc. If the main character is autistic, it always counts as autistic literature. Bit players and background parity are things that show autism is just an ordinary part of life, not something that always has to steal the limelight.
You might like my discussion on identity literature.
>> But we can go even further. For some characters, you don't need to add anything else to make them act like an autistic person. They already do that in canon. If I write this particular canon just as he acts in canon - struggling with body language and non-literal language, stimming with a comfort object to calm his turbulent emotions - does THAT count? Can I tag THAT as '____ is autistic'? <<
There it might depend on how much the character does it, how closely it fits the parameters of the condition. Consider "autistic spectrum" because that in particular is not a single set of traits but a large bin of possibilities clustered along a wide spectrum.
What "counts" is up to each literate person -- reader, writer, reviewer, editor, buyer, etc. -- to consider. How recognizable is the autism? How much does it appear in the writing? How important is it to the plot/theme (or not) in this work? How easy it is for a reader to recognize? Would an autistic person reading it probably feel represented by it? That too is a spectrum, from by autistic authors for autistic readers all about autism, to background parity.
Re: Thoughts
Date: 2020-10-01 06:25 am (UTC)It's okay to vary the amount you are showing.
>> I feel like I ought to be adding> something, somehow? <<
It is necessary to the story or characterization? If not, it's probably padding.
>> I mean, we can talk about autistic-coded characters til the cows come home (certainly anime is filled with them), but most would agree that they're not actually 'autistic characters', and don't count as 'representation'. <<
I think that depends on the quality and depth of the portrayal.
>> Is the knowledge in the head of the writer that yes, these things make the character autistic, enough to transform it into representation? Is it enough if the author would clarify 'yep, I see them as autistic' if asked? <<
Those are "Word of God" territory, if not supported by character behavior. Better than nothing, especially if tangential to the plot/theme at hand, but not as good as more detailed representation.
>>Does the tag validate itself by its own presence? <<
That depends on who gets to add tags. If only the author, it's Word of God. If readers -- especially with a tally, like "33 people have tagged this work Autistic," then you get to see how other people view the work. People don't always see the same things, and that's okay; that's literature.
>> But tags are for seeking as well as delineating. If I tagged a 100 word drabble that just features those two characters kissing without any other especially autistic elements, then I'd be worried about people coming in expecting some actual focus on that. <<
That's a challenge in most identity literature, like gay lit. Most people come to it looking for, say, gay sex/romance or activism. But there are other folks who want background parity, who want to see gay men going about ordinary lives and, you know, not dying tragically.
I tend to use tags for things that are shown in a given piece. YMMV.
>> So where's the cut-off? At what level can I tag it - or submit it for a challenge such as this one? <<
For this challenge, I would look at pieces which show how a disability affects the characters and how they deal with that. Some challenges want the theme to be highlighted while it others it just needs to be mentioned. This is especially true with bingo prompts -- does the story have to be about that prompt or do you just have to get the word on the page or can you write anything inspired by it? Often the instructions specify which, but they vary from one challenge to another. That's okay too.
>> I don't know - obviously, I'm overthinking this, lol. It's just that when I was trying to think of fiction ideas, I couldn't stop wondering about all that, and being kinda weirdly worried that some of my ideas were subtle, but also kind of not wanting to take the ''easy'' route and make things explicit unless it feels logical and natural for the characters... hm.<<
Thinking about it is good! Writing overt fic is fine, writing covert fic is fine. I generally recommend that you do what works for the story and the characters, don't force it.
>> Well, I shouldn't act like that's why I didn't write anything more - a head overflowing with plotbunnies and recurrent brainfog did that job lmao :'D <<
It happens.
>> (Also there are plenty of other disabilities I could write as well haha - this is just what I know best!) <<
That's a good place to start.
>> But welp I've been thinking about this loosely for a while and this challenge really shapped the question for me? *thinking* <<
:D Then I have done my job.